Modulation

"change the III7 to a IM9(3rd in bass), "
Don't get this. III7 and IM9 are two different chords. Likewise, the real problem.
In writing any notation III7 is dominant. A seventh chord.
IM9 is a major 7 with a natural 9. A very common mistake in street writing. When paying big bucks to top notch session players, this mistake is not a good idea. You'll lose, regardless of your logic, and especially, your money.

Oops! Haha. Yeah for some odd reason I thought the III7 was a minor seventh chord when I wrote that. Good catch.

"I disagree the 7th works as a good passing tone between b7-1. Looks like this b7-7-1. As a bass player I use that all the time. Also, a #4-5 will give you a nice blues trick, which is a popular blues chord. I'm not a fan of the natural 4th over any chord unless it's a suspension. Actually the only tones you want to be careful with over a dominant chord is the 4th, (b)9 (unless it’s a dominant (b)9th), and the #5 and 6.

Again, your terms are confused. The 7th = b7. 7 or ma7 = leading tone. #4 or -5 (b5) is more or less, what I said in a previous post. Making the ma7 in a dominant 7th setting takes quite a bit of experience.

"I'm not a fan of the natural 4th over any chord unless it's a suspension. "

I'm not sure what you meant, as a bass player. Terms are everything. A 5th under a IV (9th of IV) makes it a suspension, which is dominant, to me. I most ineveitably, will resolve to my I type or V type function, or even relative to those. Dominants, if understood, can go anywhere.

"Actually the only tones you want to be careful with over a dominant chord is the 4th, (b)9 (unless it’s a dominant (b)9th), and the #5 and 6."

I don't get this at all. Dominant chords are the last chords you need to worry about altering. They are the most conducive to altering. (the tritone exists) They are pentultimate chords. They move the music to somewhere!


[Edited by griphon2 on 07-16-2003 at 03:51 PM]

A reasonable discussion of half and whole diminished as dominants exists on my theory for guitar page. It's a shortcut trick with massive amounts of information. Free, believe it or not.
http://members.tripod.com/~griphon2/index-6.html

Another page is dominant triads for guitar. Great for country players. All shapes in all inversions.
http://members.tripod.com/~griphon2/index-20.html

[u]Explaining the dominant function. [/u]

Ok I was figuring that's what you meant. I can’t disagree for the most part. When you refer to penultimate you mean in a perfect cadence (V-I). Later you say that without the dominant chord music would be stagnant. A V-I cadence is meant to be played at the end of a phrase, placing it in the middle often cause a halt in music flow. The Progression V-vi is what will keep things moving, or change to relative minor as a deceptive cadence. So this is it’s function in the major scale, what about the harmonic minor where I can have a minor 6th chord (I6). Would you say that this chord must move down a 5th?

[u]Limiting possibilities. [/u]

This is where I disagree. A diminished chord is not a rewritten dominant. Re-writing is changing. Making a diminished chord and a dominant 7 chord a product of the same entity is only one chord. That’s shortening the perception not expanding it by making them the same. Truth is a diminished chord and a dominant chord are 2 completely different chords. Just because a interval exists in one chord and a different chord doesn’t make them the same chord. There is some altering going on to make what you say work. For it to be a match the diminished chord would have to add a b6 for it to be a dominant chord, and for a dominant chord to match a diminished chord it would have to drop a harmonic tone, or should I say “ROOT” tone. If you want to talk to me about mislabeling and misanalyzing chords, you should check what your writing. Like many modern musicians, you think your breaking the rules but really your not. Your just re-naming it.

[u]The I chords function.[/u]

There is only one other chord that has the same sort of function as the I chord and that’s the vi chord, or relative minor chord. The thing that makes a tonic chord is the fact that all the other chords will want to pull back to it, not very many chords pull back to ii, iii, IV, or (haha) viio. Modal writing is a different subject and a different lesson. The Principle above still stands. Now to think of every chord as being a function of I, every chord would be a modulation. A principle that should be understand but not consistently.

[u]Passing tone vs. leading tone [/u]

What terms? They’re right. I just don’t think you understand what I was saying. Passing tone and leading tone are 2 different terms. A passing tone is a tone(accidental) played between 2 natural notes. Over a D dominant 7 chord: b7-7-1 equals this C-C#-D. C# would be the passing tone.

[u]Suspension 4th[/u]

Again you misunderstand what I’m saying. I’m talking about a sus4 extension to a chord. This is what I mean by playing a 4th as suspension over a chord, or a suspension chord (Asus4).

[u]Dominants moving anywhere[/u]

Again you misunderstand me. I’m talking about what notes are not good to harmonize over a dominant chord, not altering it. Like a D# (#5) over a G dominant 7 chord. Doesn’t sound good at all.

I am sorry, but your view is quite askew to actual theory.
This will take some time to explain. I will make it unscientific as possible. (cents and such) Be patient, summer is my work time, don't have much. For example;

"Dominants moving anywhere

Again you misunderstand me. I’m talking about what notes are not good to harmonize over a dominant chord, not altering it. Like a D# (#5) over a G dominant 7 chord. Doesn’t sound good at all."

Totally an abjectly incorrect. I don't get it. It depends upon where it's going. It sounds perfectly fine, to me. If you play a chord, and then play a scale that is altered such as G7, (D#, your view, b13, Eb, my view) sounds perfectly ok. #5 sounds correct, to me. Function is the key and ultimate resolution. Any note can harmonize over a dominant chord. Write your triads out.

Another view. Your example... G7 play F B (the tritone) D# and place G in the bass. Oh, crap, I've got a G7 augmented.
Sounds perfectly ok to me. Weeding through this nomenclature can be quite tedious. This is STILL a dominant chord.

This simple precept will work in Major, minor, or Timbuktu.
It's that simple. There's no need to make this, this complicated.

Yeah man your going to have to explain cause I am finding your theory hard to accept. Seems like your rationalizing each post. Like the #5 over a dominant chord. I didn’t say a 7#5, did I?? I figured you would have gotten that just because I stated that I wasn’t referring to a b9 and 9th dominant. BTW, a 6 will work over a dominant 13th chord and a 4th will work over a dominant 11th. Yes any note will work harmonically over a dominant chord, I was only stating the ones that you should be careful with. And since the entire discussion was about the dominant 7th chord, I figured that would be understood. Please don’t make it more confusing by introducing cents, we’re not talking about microtones here.

Back to the root of this discussion. What tells you the difference between using a diminished chord and a dominant chord?? Like if your writing a tune, what would you consider to be the difference between these 2 chords? Don’t say where they’re going (function) cause they’re both going to want to go back to I. Your theory states to me that a diminished chord can’t stand alone, it would only exist within a dominant chord. And every time you play a diminished chord you throw a note in the bass to make it dominant. To me that is just a option and to insist that actual theory insists on it is completely absurd.

Another view. Your example... G7 play F B (the tritone) D# and place G in the bass. Oh, crap, I've got a G7 augmented.
Sounds perfectly ok to me. Weeding through this nomenclature can be quite tedious. This is STILL a dominant chord.

Yeah. Apply that to what your saying. G7 play F, B and D with G in the bass. Becomes a G7. Could it be G7/B, arranged as B, D, G, F, G. Yeah, so what would this chord be named B, F, B, D. B diminished of course. There is no G in that chord, so it will never be a G dominant 7 chord. Even if you were to add this chord up to being a Bdim7, or Bm7b5. It wouldn’t match. Bdim7 would be B, D, F, Ab, and Bm7b5 would be B, D, F and A. Bottom-line diminished chords are not dominant chord, nor does a diminished chord sit within a dominant chord. The tri-tone, yes. The tri-tone exists within the diminished chord, and I guess you can say it can have that function. Taking the Gm6 chord, arranges as G, Bb, E, G, D, G. A Gm6/E would be arranged like E, G, Bb, G, D, G. This chord could easily be mistakenly written as a Em7b5. Although E is not the dominant sounding note within this chord so it would be aurally incorrect to name it so. G is clear the dominant note as it is played 3 times making it the dominant pitch. To make this chord a Em7b5 chord, E would have to become the dominant note. Thus, it may be written as such, E, Bb, E, G, D, E. The tri-tone may act in a way that a leading tone might by progressing from Bb, E to C, F in the next chord. OR Em7b5 to Fmaj. But if the chord was a Gm6 then a leading tone function would inappropriate. Instead the minor 6th chord would act as a iv in a minor key, or a ii chord in a major key. In the major key a Gm6 would traditionally move straight to a dominant chord (ii-V7), As you can see they’re are many ways in which a tri-tonic chord can act.

.....and it goes on and on my friend....this is a song that doesn't end.....some people started singing it not knowing what it was....but they'll continue singing it forever just because.....

Sorry just needed a non-theory break somewhere in here.

Maybe there is kindness.

[u]My point in a nutshell.[/u]

Sorry if it seems like I am being unkind. What seems to start of being a friendly debate always turns into my theory is all wrong because, in this case, I don't see every chord with a tri-tone being a dominant chord. Or diminished chord. A minor 6th is chief example of what I am saying. This chord is neither a dominant chord nor a diminished chord, yet it carries a tri-tone. A minor 6 chord can’t be a dominant 9 with the 5th in the bass, because it would be missing the root note making this label incorrect. G9 with the 5 in the bass would be D, G, B, F, A, G and a Dm6 consist of D, F, A, and B. There is no G in a D minor 6 chord. No Match! The minor 6 chord and diminished chord is even farther off from the truth. Again the Dm6 is made up of D, F, A, and B. The tri-tone is clearly F-B, but the middle tone would have to be Ab to make this correct. The A is natural in the Gm6 chord, not flat. Note to the side, in a F dim chord the B would be wrote as Cb, giving it the b5 spelling. Although this is less than addressable to prove my point. Again, No Match! Now the function accepted for a minor 6 chord is a suspension. Illustrated in my reply to Chris about suspension, the i-iv-i or i-iv6-i is a common suspension in the minor key. The same for the chord progression at the bottom of my last post (ii-V7) is also a suspension. Written as ii6-V9, which is a sus2. Clearly a tri-tone exists within a minor 6th chord, and just as clearly it’s function in any case is that of a suspension. Even when it exists within a dominant chord or diminished chord it’s function remains as a suspension. Remember the chord progressions I wrote earlier I-V7-I, suspension, i-iio-i-viio, suspension. I don’t know why I didn’t write this before. haha Hopefully you see my point now griphon. I think we were both right on some ends depending on how we look at things.

I give up. I just don't agree. You say some of the wildest things. I give up.

I don't see how I am wrong. And obviously if you read it, you would see that. Or at least have something to disapprove. The only way I'm worng is if I am writting those chords wrong, Am I???

This sounds like a case of traditionally theory vrs. jazz theory......in jazz it is very common to sub out chords and not to play the root. The interval of a tri-tone is the basis of jazz and blues, and always funtions the same no matter what notes you color in around it. Check out some harmonic analysis of great jazz piano players such as Monk, Herbie Hancock, cecil taylor, etc..

Welcome back chris. I guess my problem then is I classify chords aurally rather than I guess functionally. If I hear a minor 6 chord, that's what it is. Regardless if it's function was to be a dominant 9 chord with the root sub'd out. Simply cause a minor 6 chord doesn't have to sit in a dominant position, it could just as easily be a ii chord, i chord, or iv chord. I see where griphon is saying a tri-tone functions naturally as a dominant or leading tone because it's a occurrence in the major scale as V and viio. A minor 6 chord, which has a tri-tone, will naturally occur in other chords which makes the dominant and leading tone function only 66% correct. Fact is the interval of a tri-tone only functions or naturally wants to move in one direction. Example in E(b5) the tri-tone of E-Bb, it's natural movement is to F-C. Or it could be classified as Fmaj7sus4-Fmaj7.


E E
C C
Bb ~sus.~> A
A
F F


Bb-A clearly a suspension. The tri-tone movement is clearly in this change although I couldn’t find a way to line it up. And as you can see the E(b5) is in the first chord, along with the F major chord. I could have easily made the E a diminished chord but I saved the trouble of changing the first and second chord to Fmaj9. Clearly a suspension. The same exists with all the other chords I proposed. First the V7-I, the dominant V in which the dominant’s 7th to the tonic’s 3rd is the suspension. And the tri-tone movement is from the 3rd and 7th of the dominant to the 1st and 5th of the tonic chord. Second the iv-i, the subdominant iv in which the subdominant’s 3rd to the tonics 5th is the suspension. And the tri-tone movement is from the 6th and the 3rd of the iv chord to the 3rd and 7th of the tonic chord.

I can't say that all chords carrying the tri-tone will function as a supension. Clearly not the case if it is the tonic chord. But naturally in the diatonic system it's seem to be a valid point of viewthat's equal to the dominant and leading tone function.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-18-2003 at 10:42 AM]

You are again misconstruing what is being said. I7 is not traditionally tonic. Please correct this notion. In American based music, I7 can be considered tonic, but it's actual function is dominant. (blues, jazz, pop and country) Any tritone is a dominant function. Tonic is a repose function. Writing out triads long enough, everything becomes dominant, but very muddy and ambiguous (like this particular sentence). New rules apply.

An Asus4 is an implied dominant chord. If you want to use it as a I chord or IV, fine, go ahead. (the tune sounds like it doesn't end, not a bad notion, as IV delaying resolution.) The natural resolution is 4th to 3rd. Not all tunes end on I,i-vii. Don't make this more complicated. Dominant or dominant types, or function, move the music (almost every type or genre). Dominants can conceiveably go anywhere. It's because of the nature of the tritone. Dissonance.

E E
C C
Bb ~sus.~> A
A
F F
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually a C13 suspension, or I'd rather C11, for better voice leading. There are a few other voice leadings you can do. Bad orchestration chord, to me. Too much mud, to write for horns, for example. Needs to be a wider voicing, especially if you want F in the bass. Sorry, but the C7 or F#7 tritone is present. Makes it a dominant chord. Traditionally or modern, it's a tritone chord. Makes it dominant. None of your rationalizations will change that fact. I'm really sorry, to have to say this.

[Edited by griphon2 on 07-18-2003 at 02:25 PM]

[u]Tri-tone = dominant function[/u]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yady, yady, yady. Call every chord a dominant if I give a hoot, how blind you are to what I am saying. Now again you rationalize your post from the discussion. I never said anything about a “I7”. If your discussing something at least talk about something that is being discussed. The “I” in music refers to tonic, whatever extension comes after it is harmony. Tonic has a function, ha! What’s it’s function??? The I chord can come or go to any chord with it’s key, a far cry from setting rules and functions. Yeah and if you write out your triads enough and it can be become a tonic chord, or just about any chord. No point made here.

An Asus4 is an implied dominant, explain? If you know what a suspension is meant to do, it’s clearly not a dominant chord. Dominants can conceivably go anywhere, true but it has it’s favorites, V7-vi and V7-I(i). Chord substitution may vary this thought, but by your terms of function it’s in this manner. Your idea of tri-tone function is extremely limiting. Another chord where the tri-tone exists in in a Major #11 chord. Formula: 1, 3, 5, 7, (9), #11. #11 is also #4, a tri-tone interval. Clearly not dominant, nor diminished. Do you wish to explain this one??

Oh, but wait if you take out this note and put in this note it's becomes a dominant chord. I know thats what your going to say. -LOL-

[u]C13 suspension[/u]

Whatever man, just go back and look at the Fmaj7, I repeat F MAJOR 7. E is a MAJOR seventh above F. Since you brought that up I believe the correct spelling since you want a wider range is Fmaj13. Your right probably a better voicing chord, although suspension usually occur at the 4th or 2nd. Then they’ll quickly resolve to the 3rd or maybe 1st or 5th. Other options yes, but another story. Sorry but just keep bringing up your points and I’ll keep shooting them down.



[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-18-2003 at 03:25 PM]

It's ashame that the only point of view is yours. Especially at this site. I am trying to help you understand
a very simple theoretical and actual playing point. But you deny, with absolutely no work. You are entwined and transfixed with your point of view. Sorry, it flies in the face of most actual written theory. There are many free college sites that readily explain what I am saying. It's not a POV. They're are actual truths as we know it. Even these truths have been broken, and new ones are written. How can that be a problem? You are changing the title of this site. This is not tricks, but YOUR point of view with no rational sense of accuracy. I find this very suspect. I don't have any idea, what else to say, but goodbye. This wrong information is pitiful.