Modulation

Well, I can't say I necessarily agree w/ya, I found analyzing triads within chords has opened up a lot of new possiblities on how to approach these chords (improvise), sub-out, and arrange, especially when you get into jazz/be-bop theory and start utulizing neighbor/approach tones to outline chord tones and extensions.
As far as hearing these chords the way they are, well when you start getting into inversions it's a whole new can of worms.....G-7 in 1st inversion sounds an awful like Bb6.

A question for you about a couple posts back....I understand how the 4 chord can be used as a suspension, but what about all the other chords you listed?

Originally posted by chris mood
Well, I can't say I necessarily agree w/ya, I found analyzing triads within chords has opened up a lot of new possiblities on how to approach these chords (improvise), sub-out, and arrange, especially when you get into jazz/be-bop theory and start utulizing neighbor/approach tones to outline chord tones and extensions.

Honestly I wouldn't want you to if that's not your way. I don't know about you and how you go about music, but everything to me is sound. I approach music by what I hear rather than what theory can make sense of it. Music is much more simple than the intelligent theorist may say, sometimes you just have to step back and take a look to understand it. Some just get too close to see.

I can't disagree with you that analyzing deeper to understanding more and more about chordal structure is not a benefit. It is, especially for someone who approaches music intelligently. It works wonders, but music isn't intellectual it's a simple human perception that almost everyone has. The very heart of where a musician creates comes from is the inner ear, “the tune he/she hears in his head and then puts down onto an instrument”. That’s all that is needed. One doesn’t need to be music theory major to create good music, but he would need music theory to understand it. The answer to writting great music isn’t in theory, if you look for it there your already led astray.

As far as hearing these chords the way they are, well when you start getting into inversions it's a whole new can of worms.....G-7 in 1st inversion sounds an awful like Bb6.

Not really. inversions only tell you where the bass note is. That’s it. And yeah G-7 does sound sort of like Bb6. There’s 2 things that seperate those two chord aurally and written. I’ll explain it both intellectually and aurally. A simple rule in music is the root of a chord is doubled to make it the outline chord. The outline chord is the note that you hear dominantly in the chord. So in Gm7 (G would be doubled) you would hear G over every other note, in Bb6 (Bb would be doubled) the Bb would be the dominant note. Inversion or not, remember that only tells you what the bass note is. The lowest note of a chord is not always doubled, that’s how you can aurally tell if it is an inversion. These 2 chords actually sound completely different. So when you hear a Gm7/Bb you still hear G over the Bb. Try it play a Gm7/Bb, then play a G. Sounds right, now play Bb. I think even you can say it sound different, although it does take some deep perception of hearing.

A question for you about a couple posts back....I understand how the 4 chord can be used as a suspension, but what about all the other chords you listed?

Ok. The first one I’ll explain is the V7, or in progression I-V7-I. this the primarily sequence that all suspension are built on. It creates movement where the I chord would be stagnant, and if you look at the notes that stack up to be what suspensions are. Also works in minor as i-V7-i.


e:------------------------------
b:--------------m---------------
g:--4---5---4---i---5---7---5---
d:--5---4---5---n---2---6---2---
a:--5---5---5---o-------7-------
e:--3-------3---r---5-------5---


The next 2 your probably going to kick yourself for not recognizing it. Since your explaining chords within a chord. Look at this progression i-iio-i-viio. The iio and viio are actually V7 chords in disguise.


e:------------------
b:------------------
g:--5---7---5---5---
d:--2---6---2---4---
a:------------------
e:--5---7---5---5---


The bVII wants to have the same resolution as the V7 chord.


e:--------------
b:--------------
g:--4---2---4---
d:--5---3---5---
a:--5---3---5---
e:--3---1---3---


The Io is just a typical suspension. I-Io-I acts as a slight movement from the I chord and back.


e:---------------
b:---------------
g:---5---4---5---
d:---1---3---1---
a:---------------
e:---4---4---4---


The same with the bII as it wants to resolve back to the I chord.


e:---------------
b:---------------
g:---4---3---4---
d:---5---4---5---
a:---5---4---5---
e:---3---2---3---


hope you understand.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-06-2003 at 11:10 AM]

Suspensions...thanx, I see, b2 to 1 (isn't that like a Phrygian cadance or something?), b7 to 1:used in Gospel a lot, very hip sounding, minor suspensions (created from diminished chords that exist inside the Dom7b9 chord).

1)The "art vrs. theory' seems to be like a wild card on this forum that people always throw into discussions to validate their opinions.....yeah we all know you don't have to be a brain scientist to write a song, paint a picture, write a novel, etc...but sometimes you have to learn things intellectually 1st before you can hear them. I believe a 4yr old child can hear and sing a major scale, penta, etc......but I believe most kids or adults would have a hard time singing a diminished, whole tone, altered dominate, etc, without ist some kind of intellectual training.

2)Inversions...who is to say that the root is going to be doubled? It is not uncommon to double the bass note. Most guitar voicings for inverted 7th & 9th chords do not have the root doubled.

3) A Cmaj13th chord sounds like a A-11/c , it's much to dark sounding for a major chord. Major chord extensions should not go above a 9th, becuase the chord takes on the sound of the relative minor, just like minor chord extensions should not go above an 11th, because it starts to take on the brightness of the relative major.

4) Having an understanding of triads within chords is a crucial for understanding the musical genius of such improvisational giants as Coltrane and Parker....for years I studied the Omini book and wondered how/why Parker broke every theoretical rule ever written and made it sound correct (maj 3rds over minor triads,-7ths over Maj7th chords,etc). I could have just aurally copied what he did, but having the knowledge and understanding of how to achieve this sound makes you a more convincing player. Guitarists Larry Carlton and Scott Henderson are big into triadic improvisation, guitarists who think this way have a tendency to be much more colorful in there improvisations.

Thanks Chris, made sense to me. I even sub out the triads triad. Makes things even more funner. I break rules all the time, but there is a logic to the breaking.

An inverted Gm7 is a i ii iii or vi. A Bb6 is a I or IV.
Bbmaj7 to Bb6 is very common for 4 bars of Bb. Many more subs are often used to relieve even that boredom.

A C7 plus (13, #b,9, 5, etc) are dominant or leading tones type chords. (as we've discovered, it's still dominant to me) Pure and simple.

As for IV chords. I prefer to look at them as sub-tonics, rather than subdominant. It's just a preference. Once you add or imply a tritone, it's dominant.

Originally posted by chris mood
[B]Suspensions...thanx, I see, b2 to 1 (isn't that like a Phrygian cadance or something?), b7 to 1:used in Gospel a lot, very hip sounding, minor suspensions (created from diminished chords that exist inside the Dom7b9 chord).

The best way to actual look at those suspension chord is not to obsessively think of the roman numerals but the movement and sound. I know that wasn’t what we were discussing, but it came to me when you pointed out the bII being phrygian, that’s right but it’s also a harmonic minor progression V-VI. As you can see the same suspension occurs in both phrygian and harmonic minor. A good thing about the bII suspension is that you can experiment with different 7th’s and it still sounds pretty good.

1)The "art vrs. theory' seems to be like a wild card on this forum that people always throw into discussions to validate their opinions.....yeah we all know you don't have to be a brain scientist to write a song, paint a picture, write a novel, etc...but sometimes you have to learn things intellectually 1st before you can hear them. I believe a 4yr old child can hear and sing a major scale, penta, etc......but I believe most kids or adults would have a hard time singing a diminished, whole tone, altered dominate, etc, without ist some kind of intellectual training.

I’m not trying to validate any opinion. I’m not trying to say screw theory all you will ever need it your ear. But it should be the foremost tool you use. Theory only makes sense of something, so I have to disagree when you say you can’t hear something until you understand it. I’m lost to why you would even say that and if you believe it. A evenly logical counterpoint to what your saying is can someone sing a scale and just not know what scale it is? A whole tone scales isn’t hard to sing, it’s the same intervallic pattern all the way up. Heck most Gregorian chants were in this manner. It wasn’t until they understood what they did until they it was a whole tone scale. Of course if you went up to someone and said sing the whole tone scale, and if they didn’t have any theory knowledge they would look at you strange. But they are still capable of singing it just not understanding it. An example of this would be someone singing along with a tune on the radio, and say that person has no musical knowledge they can still sing it even if it is in a odd scale. I'm just saying theory is there for us to make sense of music, and yes to introduce us to new ideas. But I don’t recommend it being the creative tool, look into the sound of music first.

2)Inversions...who is to say that the root is going to be doubled? It is not uncommon to double the bass note. Most guitar voicings for inverted 7th & 9th chords do not have the root doubled.

Well if the root isn’t doubled in the chord you think it is then maybe that isn’t the chord you think it is. If you play a Gm7 and the Bb is doubled, the chord is a Bb6/G. Another note doubled and it’s another chord name. This works out fine because for every note in a chord there is a chord name. The note that is doubled is usually the dominant note in that chord, and the fact that the note is doubled makes it the dominant note in the chord. So the chord is written to reflect that. Then whether it’s major or minor, and if it has an extension. The only option is if no note in a chord is doubled, then the chord is ambiguous and you can call it whatever you want. This is hardly the case.

3) A Cmaj13th chord sounds like a A-11/c , it's much to dark sounding for a major chord. Major chord extensions should not go above a 9th, becuase the chord takes on the sound of the relative minor, just like minor chord extensions should not go above an 11th, because it starts to take on the brightness of the relative major.

I agree with the C13 sounding more minor than it does major. But following what I said above ensures that it is still a chord name.

4) Having an understanding of triads within chords is a crucial for understanding the musical genius of such improvisational giants as Coltrane and Parker.... For years I studied the Omini book and wondered how/why Parker broke every theoretical rule ever written and made it sound correct (maj 3rds over minor triads,-7ths over Maj7th chords,etc). I could have just aurally copied what he did, but having the knowledge and understanding of how to achieve this sound makes you a more convincing player. Guitarists Larry Carlton and Scott Henderson are big into triadic improvisation, guitarists who think this way have a tendency to be much more colorful in there improvisations.

Kool. The key word in that whole paragraph is understanding. You theory knowledge allowed you to understand the music. The key to being a improve genius is the understanding of what a scale will do harmonically to a chord. That and having an excellent ear, because sound is still the key to improvising. When I improvise over a C13 chord, I know how each chromatic tone will sound and effect that chord. And I think of that chord as being a C13 chord, because that’s what it sounds like. I never try to take the scenic route of understanding what chords may exist within it. It’s sounds like a C13 chord, bottom line. True that the more you understand the higher tendency you will have to be a better musician. But the level you will be able to reach as a musician is all based on how good you hear, a good ear will take you farther than any theory in the world.

All player needs to be a convincing player is convincing continuality. If a players changes don’t sound natural, then he is not a convincing players. As a composer this is the foremost ability he/she must have. This can be accomplished with theory knowledge and/or with a good ear.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-06-2003 at 07:21 PM]

Originally posted by griphon2
As for IV chords. I prefer to look at them as sub-tonics, rather than subdominant. It's just a preference. Once you add or imply a tritone, it's dominant.

Ok. The dominant in a chordal structure of a key structure has a different meaning than the dominant chord itself. In the chordal structure, dominant just means 5th degree above the tonic. Well you know what a dominant chord is, ex. dom7 dom9.

This is clear because the 5th degree above the minor (key)tonic is still reffered to as dominant. And the 4th below is subdominant. Even though those chords are not dominant chords. Confusing yes but true.

Having a good ear is not the bottom line to being a good musician....I have met more then a handfull of players who've had perfect pitch and couldn't improvise their way out of a paper bag....having a creative personality is a big part of being a decent musician.

I agree, and I don't think I said a good ear was the "bottom line" to being a good musician. If I did I messed up but what I meant to say was the better your ear the farther you can go in music. The better you understand (sound) what you want to play the easier it is to play. Thinking up a sound and knowing it is a G before you touch the guitar is already a mile ahead of most. Now when it comes to improvising, relative pitch plays a bigger part. You can find out what note (chord) is in the rhythm just by looking at the rhythm guitarist or if you have written music in front of you. You can easily find a good scale to put over that chord, and relative pitch tells you what each note will do harmonically to a note. Every musician has relative pitch, it just depends on what level you are on. Everyone can tell the difference better playing a M3 over a chord and playing a P5. Knowing that beforehand is the key. And yeah I've met people with perfect pitch who couldn't improvise cause all they could tell me was the name of a note when I played it. They weren’t all that good with improvising because they didn’t have good relative pitch. Music moves in relations of one note to the next, so this is the tool we use to improvise. Although having perfect pitch with multiply that skill, but you wouldn't need it to be a successful musician. And I agree having a creative personality is the bottom line to being a musician but then again I haven't meet a musician that isn't creative in some way. That's what being a musician is all about, creating. *not talking about the 15 yr old who just wants to imitate a pop star, guys like you and me.

Not confusing at all. I just prefer not to look at it that way. Too restricting.

Griphon-
Kool. I can see where you see the IV chord as a subtonic in terms of chords. But you may what to watch because a tri-tone can exist in a IV chord as well (#4). The subdominant name given to that chord is just music terms in the least.

Chris-

About the bVII chord in a progression. I'm not into analyzing or even listening to much gospel music. But a common chord progression coming and going from the bVII chord is: bVI - bVII - I. This one is a good build up to the I chord. Think of this one in terms of it's roman numerals because it doesn't have the same effect if the last chord isn't a major tonic chord. The bVII as a suspension usually has to come from and return to the I chord. You probably ran into the bVI - bVII - I quite alot, it's a awesome progression from the norm.

"But you may what to watch because a tri-tone can exist in a IV chord as well (#4). The subdominant name given to that chord is just music terms in the least."

Sorry, I don't agree with that. Once a tri-tone is introduced, the chord becomes dominant. Albeit secondary, but a dominant, nonetheless, with it's own resolution properties. Example: C7 F7 G7. Even though it is written in C, the only actual chord in C is G7. C7 F7 G7 is nowadays, considered a I IV V progression, just for simplicity. It is not technically. There are no semantic rules or arguments or music terms to deny that fact. The reason the IV chord is called the subdominant is simply because it's below the dominant. Adding a tritone to any chord, for that matter, changes the function.

Originally posted by griphon2
As for IV chords. I prefer to look at them as sub-tonics, rather than subdominant. It's just a preference. Once you add or imply a tritone, it's dominant.

I'm just stating from what you wrote man. Since I think we're talking about chord names, like V is dominant and IV is subdominant. A tri-tone does exist within the IV chord, it's the #4. A tri-tone is just the name of the interval that is 3 steps, whether it's #4 or b5. It's still a tri-tone. That's all I'm trying to say. Oh the fact that the tri-tone is always dominant, I can't agree but if it's your way to look at it. Cool. I wouldn't neglect the fact that the tri-tone exists in diminished chords though. Especially if your looking in terms of function. The tri-tone would also exist in any b9 chord, m6, and many others.

Originally posted by griphon2
The reason the IV chord is called the subdominant is simply because it's below the dominant.

Below the tonic not the dominant. These terms directly point to there relationship with the tonic. it's called a subdominat because it is 5 degrees below the tonic, like the dominant is 5 degrees above the tonic. Just like the mediant is the 3rd degree above the tonic the submediant (6th degree above the tonic) is the 3rd degree below the tonic. "super-" is given to the chord degree above the tonic. Most of the time it is understood, instead of superdominant, it's just dominant. But the 2nd degree is called the super-tonic. In the minor key the 7th degree above the tonic is called the subtonic, because it is the 2nd degree below the tonic.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-13-2003 at 11:41 PM]

Your explanation of tonic, supertonic, mediant, I'll accept. As far as I'm concerned, 40 years writing, it's useless information. Nice questions on a test.

As for tritones, I don't think you're gettin' it. The tritone is the Maj 3rd and the b7th of a dominant chord.
The interval is a tritone. Or a #4 or b5 or the devil's interval. A fully diminished chord is a double tritone. e.g., D7 and Ab7, both chords' tritone are exactly the same.(diminished can be used and thought of as dominant or leading tone, therefore, a function of the dominant, or pentultimate to I or i or other variations)
Dominant chords can be and often are subs through the tritone. (a glorious excercise, play dominant type scales or modes using the cycle of 4ths and 5ths. An average guitar players nightmare. A great excercise!) The irony is that there aren't a lot of tritones.
A major trick for every guitar player. Tritones have a distinctive look on the guitar. The idea is to make this stuff simple. The dominant and it's asundry variations make music, for the most part, palatable to the ear, regardless of experience.

As a general rule, roughly 90 percent of all music is this.
I, i, IV, iv = mostly I
iii, iv = mostly I
ii, V, V7 and all it's possible variations, and vii half or full dim = V

That's it in a nutshell, and somewhat oversimplified. Works incredibly well in most situations, beginning or advanced or professional.

Originally posted by griphon2
[B]Your explanation of tonic, supertonic, mediant, I'll accept. As far as I'm concerned, 40 years writing, it's useless information. Nice questions on a test.

Yeah. But it can have it's uses when it comes to understanding what the chord names mean. Especially the "leading tone" which has a little theory behind it that still is very beneficial to understand.

As for tritones, I don't think you're gettin' it. The tritone is the Maj 3rd and the b7th of a dominant chord.
The interval is a tritone. Or a #4 or b5 or the devil's interval. A fully diminished chord is a double tritone. e.g., D7 and Ab7, both chords' tritone are exactly the same.(diminished can be used and thought of as dominant or leading tone, therefore, a function of the dominant, or pentultimate to I or i or other variations)

I get it, and I don't necessarily disagree but I don't think of a tri-tone as always being a dominant chord. We have two different views on the matter. When we were talking about chordal names in a key signature, I'm saying that the tri-tone exists within the IV chord from it's root to the 4th. I know your talking about the dominant 7 chord now. The part that I see different is the fact that every time you have a tri-tone the chord can or worse has to be looked at as a dominant. A tri-tone can exist in a minor 6th chord from the 3rd to the 6th, and is often the tonic chord in the melodic minor key. A completely separate function from what your saying, and it’s an apposite cadence when coming from a V7.

Although a diminished chord can be looked at as a dominant (if you wish), they have 2 different functions. A dominant chord resolving back to I has the effect of being a perfect cadence. On the other hand a diminished doesn’t and it is imperfect. A Dominant chord can resolve to the vi chord (V7-vi), a cool little trick cause your expecting it to resolve to I instead you get a different movement, but just as fulfilling. Referred to as a deceptive cadence. However a diminished chord hardly ever resolves to a vi, or simply up a whole step.

Sorry just have to disagree. A tritone is a dominant or leading tone function. It may occupy a Ib7 position or any position, but it's still a dominant function. As for m6, it's a dominant 9th with the 5th in the bass. (a very common trick) You can't play a pure Ionian or Lydian scale over a dominant chord without a major clash. (unless you have deep experience in bebop and modern country.)

Explain to me what a dominant function is? I don't get how every time a tri-tone exists within a chord it will be a dominant. This will clearly dismiss a nice range of chords. A leading tone only wants to do one thing (naturally) and that's move up a half-step but it doesn't have to. Example: viio - III7(V7) - vi(i). A deceptive move from major to harmonic minor a step and half lower. I get what your saying but don’t you think by shortening the range of chords into either I or V your limiting your possibilities?? Actually any chord is a shape of it’s tonic chord (I or i). So what help is it to think of every chord as a tonic if your a theorist?

I know why you don't agree (or see what I'm trying to show) cause you always make everything into another chord. Like your going to do with the chord progression I wrote above, change the III7 to a IM9(3rd in bass), which would no longer make that change a harmonic minor cadence. I see chord substitution as a way to create alternatives for chords, not a way to fit every chord into a smaller range of chords. A minor 6 chord is not a dominant 9 chord. I don't know how you are able to grasp the full use of music. In the world of sound, a minor 6 chord doesn't sound like a dominant 9th chord regardless of inversion. So they should not be thought of that way. 2 is better than 1, meaning if you distinguished them you would have 2 chords and more to create with.

You can't play a pure Ionian or Lydian scale over a dominant chord without a major clash. (unless you have deep experience in bebop and modern country.)

I disagree the 7th works as a good passing tone between b7-1. Looks like this b7-7-1. As a bass player I use that all the time. Also, a #4-5 will give you a nice blues trick, which is a popular blues chord. I'm not a fan of the natural 4th over any chord unless it's a suspension. Actually the only tones you want to be careful with over a dominant chord is the 4th, (b)9 (unless it’s a dominant (b)9th), and the #5 and 6.

Explain to me what a dominant function is?
I'll try. Dominant chords or 7th chords only appear in all natural major scales only once. As a V7. It is the only position where the tritone appears naturally and sounds natural. I say again, Dominant 7th chords only appear once in every key. That makes them unique. (Lets make half and full diminished another email or discussion. Though the same idea prevails with some strangeness.) Dominant chords are given this name, because normally or in a traditional sense, they'll naturally resolve down a 5th to I or to a period of rest. Also called a pentultimate. Makes the progression move. At the moment, I haven't altered anything. A human penchant (to alter or change). Without the dominant chord, music is naturally stagnant (a largely supported POV, or we'd still be listening to Gregorian Chants). Thus, the dominant function. Thus, the tritone. Hope this helps. Answer the next question in an another post.

"This will clearly dismiss a nice range of chords. A leading tone only wants to do one thing (naturally) and that's move up a half-step but it doesn't have to. Example: viio - III7(V7) - vi(i). A deceptive move from major to harmonic minor a step and half lower. I get what your saying but don’t you think by shortening the range of chords into either I or V your limiting your possibilities?? Actually any chord is a shape of it’s tonic chord (I or i). So what help is it to think of every chord as a tonic if your a theorist?"

Don't get this at all.
Dims can move by half step and don't have to. Exactly. Understanding, the a dim is a rewritten dominant makes this possible. This does NOT shorten the range or chords, but makes them vastly larger. The real problem is misanalyizing or mislabeling, especially in terms of function. A tritone, in a traditional sense and even transferred to all forms of modern music, is a Dominant Function. May not be at the V7 position, but most always a 5th relative. V7 of something...
This kind of analysis on the street, is almost nonexistant.
Just alter the major scale structure. Most all good session people know this information.

"So what help is it to think of every chord as a tonic if your a theorist?"
I have no idea what this means. I've never said this.
What I did say, that certain chords, most of the time, have a tendency to be a function of I, or V. Again doesn't lessen or shorten anything. Actually enhances. The more the merrier. There has been some discussion of stacking chords on this site. (no talk of stacking scales, modes, quartal harmony, etc.) This idea is very modern an should be understood. It's real simple if you know and understand certain principles.