Help with flat 7th in minor scales

Hi,

I was doing the 12 bar blues lesson with the flat 7th in the key of E minor, and I tried to transpose the progression to the key of A minor. So, the flat 7th would now be a Gb maj chord right? I tried playing this, and it sounded terrible. Do I have it right?

Originally Posted by: ovaltine
I was doing the 12 bar blues lesson with the flat 7th in the key of E minor, and I tried to transpose the progression to the key of A minor. So, the flat 7th would now be a Gb maj chord right?

The minor 7th degree of the A minor scale is the note G.

a -b - c - d - e - f - g

So, if you are building a chord on the 7th note of the A minor scale you would get a G major chord.

g - b - d

Make sense?

Thanks. Ya, that makes sense, but we are using the flattened 7th chord for this lesson right? So it would be Gb major, which doesn't sound very good in the progression.

Originally Posted by: ovaltineThanks. Ya, that makes sense, but we are using the flattened 7th chord for this lesson right? So it would be Gb major, which doesn't sound very good in the progression.

You are confusing flat with minor.

Scale degrees should be referred to as major or minor. Whereas the chord progression degree they are built upon are referred to as flat or sharp. The confusing part is that any given note can be natural (as in the note G), sharp (as in G-sharp) or flat (as in G-flat).

But here's the issue: a minor scale degree or a flatted chord progression chord can happen to land on a natural note, a sharp or a flat. Examples!

A major scale:

A - 1st
B - 2nd
C# - major 3rd
D - 4th
E - 5th
F# - major 6th
G# - major 7th

A minor scale:

A - 1st
B - 2nd
C - minor 3rd
D - 4th
E - 5th
F - minor 6th
G - minor 7th

See why we call scale degrees major instead of sharp or flat? Just because the G is the 7th note of the A minor scale we don't add a flat. It's already flatted (i.e. minor) being an interval of a minor 7th from the root note of the scale A.

Now if we built a chord on the 7th degree of the A minor scale we get G, B, D and we refer to it as a Flat 7th using Roman Numerals: bVII.

That make it clear? :)

Thanks for the explanation, but I am still a bit confused. Why do we call it a flattened 7th if a chord is built on the 7th degree of the minor scale. Why not just call it a 7th chord? Are all chord progressions built on minor scale degrees referred to as flattened? I really appreciate all the help!

Originally Posted by: ovaltineWhy do we call it a flattened 7th if a chord is built on the 7th degree of the minor scale. Why not just call it a 7th chord?
[/quote]
Because the major scale is the standard we start with, and the minor scale is a derived form, secondary to the major. And in the major the 7th scale degree is major (i.e. a half-step below the 1st):

A - 1st
G# - major 7th

So if we call it a "seventh chord" (written as vii; in Roman Numerals because we are identifying a chord and not just a scale degree note by itself), we would be referring to the major scale's 7th note. It would be a G# diminished chord. The 7th is already taken! :)

In order to uniquely identify the 7th note of the minor, we need to specify that it is the minor 7th scale degree note we are building a chord on (i.e. a whole-step below the 1st).

A - 1st
G - minor 7th

Add to this scale degrees should be referred to as major or minor depending upon which scale they are part of (major or minor). Whereas the chord progression degree which they are built upon are referred to as flat or sharp; and labelled with Roman Numerals to uniquely identify them or distinguish them from scale degrees.

Make sense?
[QUOTE=ovaltine]Are all chord progressions built on minor scale degrees referred to as flattened?

Only the ones that are built on the notes of the scale that are altered from the major scale and therefore unique to the minor scale.

Look at this list of all 12 possible chromatic scale degrees starting on A:

A - 1st
A# - flat 2nd
B - 2nd
C - minor 3rd
C# - major 3rd
D - 4th
D# - sharp 4th
E - 5th
F - minor 6th
F# - major 6th
G - minor 6th
G# - major 7th

You see that the 3rd, 6th and 7th can be major or minor.

Ergo, chords built on the major 3rd, major 6th and major 7th are not flatted chords and written as iii, vi, vii diminished.

Whereas, chords built on the minor 3rd, minor 6th and minor 7th are flatted chords and written as bIII, bVI and bVII.

In the case of the one that do not change, 1st, 4th and 5th, we only have to change the Roman Numeral from upper case to lower case because that identifies a major chord versus a minor chord:

A major (I)
D major (IV)
E major (V)

A minor (i)
D minor (iv)
E minor (v)

You are quite welcome for the help. Keep asking questions and thinking until you are confident you understand!

Originally Posted by: ovaltineWhy do we call it a flattened 7th if a chord is built on the 7th degree of the minor scale. Why not just call it a 7th chord?
[/quote]
Because the major scale is the standard we start with, and the minor scale is a derived form, secondary to the major. And in the major the 7th scale degree is major (i.e. a half-step below the 1st):

A - 1st
G# - major 7th

So if we call it a "seventh chord" (written as vii; in Roman Numerals because we are identifying a chord and not just a scale degree note by itself), we would be referring to the major scale's 7th note. It would be a G# diminished chord. The 7th is already taken! :)

In order to uniquely identify the 7th note of the minor, we need to specify that it is the minor 7th scale degree note we are building a chord on (i.e. a whole-step below the 1st).

A - 1st
G - minor 7th

Add to this scale degrees should be referred to as major or minor depending upon which scale they are part of (major or minor). Whereas the chord progression degree which they are built upon are referred to as flat or sharp; and labelled with Roman Numerals to uniquely identify them or distinguish them from scale degrees.

Make sense?
[QUOTE=ovaltine]Are all chord progressions built on minor scale degrees referred to as flattened?

Only the ones that are built on the notes of the scale that are altered from the major scale and therefore unique to the minor scale.

Look at this list of all 12 possible chromatic scale degrees starting on A:

A - 1st
A# - flat 2nd
B - 2nd
C - minor 3rd
C# - major 3rd
D - 4th
D# - sharp 4th
E - 5th
F - minor 6th
F# - major 6th
G - minor 6th
G# - major 7th

You see that the 3rd, 6th and 7th can be major or minor.

Ergo, chords built on the major 3rd, major 6th and major 7th are not flatted chords and written as iii, vi, vii diminished.

Alternately, chords built on the minor 3rd, minor 6th and minor 7th are flatted chords and written as bIII, bVI and bVII.

In the case of the one that do not change, 1st, 4th and 5th, we only have to change the Roman Numeral from upper case to lower case because that identifies a major chord versus a minor chord:

A major (I)
D major (IV)
E major (V)

A minor (i)
D minor (iv)
E minor (v)

You are quite welcome for the help. Keep asking questions and thinking until you are confident you understand!

Awesome, I got it, thanks a lot.

Originally Posted by: ovaltineAwesome, I got it, thanks a lot.

Good deal, you are welcome!